Redefining Submission

The word submit makes many people uncomfortable. With good reason, as it’s often associated with control, patriarchy, and power.

But what does the Bible actually mean by submit?

As we explore passages like Ephesians 5 and others, we’ll unpack the surprising idea that biblical submission isn’t about submitting to power, but about ordering ourselves under love. When understood within the framework of Christ’s example, the concept of submission becomes less about domination and more about the radical, upside-down order of the kingdom of God.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Welcome to Salt and Soil. This is a space for us to sit with scripture or faith and the questions that come up along the way.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

This is not a podcast that has all the answers figured out. Whether you're rooted in your faith, full of questions, or just listening in, you're welcome here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I'm Rachel and I'm Amanda. We're friends, moms, and women who love Jesus ask a lot of questions and are still learning what it looks like to have a relationship with God in real life. Hi friends, and welcome to episode one. And today we have a spicy topic for you on the word submit. As both Rachel and I are mothers and wives, this is a topic and word that is debated and can have a lot of contention around it, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, controversy. It's a difficult word for me. I think it's a difficult word for a lot of people, but I think what's important here is that it does come up in the Bible a lot. So what we're trying to do is wrestle through that and reconcile what is the Bible actually telling us and what does that look like for us. Is there a piece of scripture that we could bring up? There are quite a few verses that encourage us to submit. There are also verses that say do not submit in certain contexts. Oh, interesting. So that's cool. So let's read James chapter four, verse seven. Yeah. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. So there we're submitting to God, and obviously there's a positive outcome there. And do we know what submission means in that context? We do. The word used here from the original Greek hypotasso.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

So submit in the specific James reference. The Greek word is hypotasso.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yes, and that's actually the word that is most commonly translated to submit. Okay. There are other words that we have translated into submit to, but hypotasso is the most common one. It is the one that most closely translates to how we would define submitting.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Okay, so the Greek verb, the hypotasso, which appears 38 times in the New Testament in that exact verb form. That is a lot more than I even realized.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

The word hypotasso, the literal makeup of that word, hypo means under and tasso to arrange, order, or assign position. So we are ordering or placing something underneath. Kind of. Okay. I think what's important here though is that's not a passive act. So it's not rolling over or laying flat. It's situating things in an order that was designed to exist. And it sounds like it's very intentional. Very intentional. And it's relational. So it takes two to tango. Right. It's sort of an active choosing.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

You are not ordering me under something. I'm ordering myself. Right. It's a personal choice. Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And in a free will state.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yes. And so in the context of that word being used in the verse in James, we submit ourselves to God, we are ordering ourselves underneath God. We're sort of taking our place underneath God in his natural order of things.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah. And are we directly under God? Is there ever anything in between?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

I don't know. I mean, angels maybe. Yeah. Or maybe they're also under God, but in like a parallel realm.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Right, because they're submitting to him also. Right. By nature.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, I think everything would be ordered under God because God created everything.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

And in fact, in the New Testament, hypotasso is explicitly used for angels. It says in 1 Peter 3 2 2, Jesus Christ, angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Hmm, that's so good.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

So really it's all beings are under him, but there's not necessarily a hierarchy past that, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Yeah. And that that's that's something else we'll talk about, the idea of hierarchy when it comes to submission, because the way that it's being used in the Bible, it's not actually in relation to hierarchy.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Right. Okay. Which is exactly culturally what we expect. If someone's submitting to someone, the other person automatically has complete control, quote unquote, above them. It's you giving up to a power. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

And so is that not necessarily what it's saying with hypotasso? I think it's that God's design is not power over beings. It's more us willingly submitting ourselves to God so that things are sort of in working order. Yeah, with our free will.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Versus him automatically having master power. It's us making the choice to have him have that power.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And it's not actually about the power. Sure. It's a little more organic than that, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah, because I think power in itself also is a word with a lot of controversy.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Right. And it's authoritarian, and that's not what that's not the relationship that God wants with us.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Right. So what is another if hypotasso is the main verb used, is there another way that it's used in another scripture that we can look at to see if it kind of aligns with the other one?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah, so there are a few. Let's go to Colossians 2.20. Okay. Can you read it?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Alright, Colossians 2.20. Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why? As though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules?

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Okay, so the word originally used here is not a hypotasso. It is a Greek word dogmatizo.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Oh. So it sounds like in this context that in dying with Christ, your old identity under the worldly systems is over.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

So why are we submitting to the world? And we're not using that same relational ordering word, hypotasso. We're using dogmatizo.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

And so yeah, I mean, essentially this is who are you submitting to, from what it sounds like, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:00

So this word dogmatizo, it's where the word dogma literally comes from. Oh, that's interesting. So here we're talking about decrees or official rulings or like an imposed rule. And so that's that that's that power thing. I'm imposing these decrees over you.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

And you're, you know, giving over to them. We've translated that as submit. Yeah. But they're using a completely different word for it. That means aligning to these decrees. Is Paul questioning why? Qu like is he questioning something here? I think he's basically saying why are we beholding ourselves to the law of man and not submitting to God?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Totally. So it's like the Bible in itself is not praising all forms of submission. Exactly. It's praising submission in the right place.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Exactly. And they didn't even write the word submission. So we read it as submit in both places, but it was written as hypotasso in relationship to God. Right. And it was written as dogmatizo in relation to these worldly laws. So it's two different things that they're talking about, and we've rolled them both into submit. So then we look at it as what's the difference between submitting here and submitting there.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

When it originally meant something different.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

In this case, maybe following law.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah, or even idolizing it.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Idolizing law, which I don't think God wants us to do, right? And there's points in the Bible when Jesus explicitly went against law. So we don't always.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

But it also explicitly says, I'm not sure where this verse is, we can probably find it, that Jesus is hypotasso to God. Jesus submits to God.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

How that works in the Holy Trinity, we may never know.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

That is a podcast for another day.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, exactly. So submitting to the wrong spiritual authority then would be problematic.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

And that's not a virtue. So it's like, okay, then in this case, Paul is not saying you should submit in the way that you submit to God, to law. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

And he's saying, why do you? You know, Paul gets frustrated and he's like, what are you people doing? He's not even saying, Oh, and you probably shouldn't do this. It's happening, and he's saying, Stop it.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Is this because in the case of Jesus performing miracles on the Sabbath, is this similar to that? Of like you are becoming too obsessed with the Solomon. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

And it's that yeah, it just gets a little bit hard-headed, and that's where even Jesus would get frustrated. He's like, Yeah, this is God, and he's performing works and signs of God. Right. Why are you worried about if it's happening on the Sabbath or not?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So what's interesting is this verb form, dogmatizo, of submit is only used one time in the entire New Testament, and it's in Colossians 2.20.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

So that is kind of a standalone verse then. Yeah. That's telling us something about following external law. Exactly. Not how we interact with God. So we're using the same word, it means something very different.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Right. This verb is never used for God giving law, Moses giving law, Jesus giving. Because there's a lot of circumstances which law is used, and this is specifically not used in that case.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah. That's cool. That's important, I think.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

So what is another is there another verb usage outside of these two?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, so let's look at this one. Enechomai.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Ooh, I liked how you said that.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

This is another one where the word actually becomes something negative, and we've translated it to submit, but it originally had a little bit of a different meaning.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

And this is only used two times in the entire Bible, both times in the New Testament, once used in Luke, in the other in Galatians. Luke 11 53. The scribes and the Pharisees begin to be very hostile toward him. So in this translation, it's actually translated to hostile.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Is it translated to submit in other translations?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

That's interesting. It is used two times. In Galatians 5.1, go ahead and read yours. Galatians 5 1. Do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. And in some translations it they say, do not be entangled again in a yoke of slavery.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, so here this word anekhome means more directly being entangled or trapped or constrained.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

That's interesting then that that almost follows more of what we define submit as culturally now. Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

And but if you look at where this is used, it's saying do not do that to a yoke of slavery.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

It's not saying do that to God or do that to your husbands. It's saying don't do that to slavery. So I think that's interesting. Where it's very specific. Yeah. So this is in the ESV translation. Galatians 5 1, for freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm therefore and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

So other translations have translated that differently to entangled you said?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

In Galatians 5, NIV, it says, Stand firm then and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah. I think that's really the message here. First of all, it's not using the word submit. Right. And second of all, it's again saying, don't let that happen to you. Right. I think from here we can say there are a few different words that some of our translations have translated to submit. That kind of flattens it out a little bit. Yeah. So we hear the word submit, we apply our own understood definition to it. Yeah. And we're reading all of these verses to carry our definition of that word.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

And what we're finding is some of those words actually do mean something negative.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

And we're being warned against that. I do want to look more at hypotasso, though, because that is the most common use. Yeah. And that is where we are told in the Bible that we should submit to our husbands.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

And people should submit to leaders in that context. And so I want to talk about that too, because that's where it can feel scary or even just wrong to do that. And I think we, especially today where modern humans are so mobile, right. And we're all connected with technology. So we unfortunately we just see and know a lot of struggle with destructive or violent or oppressive forces. So when you hear submit to leaders or submit to husbands, it's hard not to think of all of those situations where those are not actually good powers. Right. And so it it's a difficult conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Where you don't want to say, well, the Bible says submit.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

So therefore I must listen to everything someone above me in power has to say. Yeah. Which can actually be really problematic. Yes. Like if we're looking at Pontius Pilate. Exactly. Or something, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

So let's talk about the word submission and its relationship to the word dominance. Okay. So we use submission and dominance as opposites. Right. They're opposites, but they go together. They live together. So you can't have one without have submission without dominance and vice versa. So when we say the word submit and we think about that means putting ourselves under dominance, basically. But what's happening here is that these Bible verses are not actually like hypotasso does not have a dominating counterpart. It's just aligning you in like a specific order. Sure. So then when we talk about submitting to leaders, which the Bible does tell us to do, I think it becomes immediately uncomfortable because that feels like we're then asking leaders to dominate us. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

And basically whatever they say goes, but actually the Bible isn't using submission in that way. Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

The Bible's also not using leaders in that way, which is really fun. Yeah. So let's look at a couple of verses that basically define the leadership of man. Okay. And keeping it framed in the context of this is what we're being asked to submit to. Right. Right. So Mark ten verses forty-two through forty-five.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them, not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, for even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve. I think that's pretty powerful because that's explicitly saying that Jesus, who is the leader, is here to serve. There's also First Peter chapter 5, verses 2 through 3 says, Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And then here's one that more explicitly names leaders in Hebrews 13. Hebrews 13 7. Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

What how do you take that last one to mean then? Well, it's literally saying that leaders are speaking the word of God and their life has a visible outcome. So I think that would go back to fruits of the spirit. And Jesus said you can, I don't remember his exact words, but you can know a believer by their fruit.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Right. So yeah, I mean I think this brings up a good point that biblical submission does not equal unquestionable obedience. Yes. It doesn't mean because a leader said something, therefore we need to follow it. It means that if the leader uh has accountability, maybe isn't sinful, right? All of these things then if you're following, you know, a moral life, I guess, then in that way, that's a leader that you should be able to trust your submission to.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah. So God is not assigning leaders of men and then saying, so now you have authority over man, make sure that you do good. Yeah. Like make sure that you follow my word. That's not even what's happening. Yeah. The leaders themselves are meant to model Jesus and show us through their fruit how to live.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

So it's not actually claiming a title of leader. It's more of a function. So a lot of moms are leaders. Are they explicitly titled as such? Maybe not. Sure. I think you don't need to be because that's not what we're getting out of the Bible. We're getting people who are functionally leading, not absolutely people who are titled authorities.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Right, like she's leading a family.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

And it also means that there's a lot of moments in scripture where God actually seems to be preferring like a faithful disobedience when it's the opposite, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Having a leader that people aren't following, right? Like in this case at Exodus 1, the Hebrew midwives that defied Pharaoh.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Yeah, that's a really good example. So we're not being told to obey authorities.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

We're being told to align to faithful leadership.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

That feels a lot more comfortable to me than submitting to dominance, basically.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

And also that leaders are there to serve, not to control. So again, we're taking the word leader in a way now. We've changed the context. But I think back then it was maybe a more comfortable word.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Sure. I don't think they had all of these generations and eras even of documented misuse of leadership.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

You still had bad leaders.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

But in general, I think the idea of leadership was more guiding than controlling.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Right. Like their purpose as a leader was not, they weren't like, I need to control all of these things. That wasn't like their first purpose. And I think it's looking at the fruit, right? Is the purpose of this leadership rooted in love? So therefore you shouldn't necessarily assume submission or putting yourself under any type of leader, right? You might not agree with, or maybe you're like the Holy Spirit inside of you is feeling hesitant to follow.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a really important distinction because we're looking at the definition of submitting. We also need to look at the definition of what we're submitting to.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yeah, exactly. So it's just as important to look at the word leader as dominance and submission.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

And then we have examples in those verses that we saw earlier of the Bible explicitly warning us against being constrained to those forces that are not godly. Right. We can understand what is the Bible telling us, but what does that mean for us today in the systems that we're in? Sure. So if we're meant to align with faithful leaders, what does that actually look like in our daily lives? Who are our leaders? How do we know if they're godly?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

What do we do if they're not?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

These are the questions that I have.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Those are good questions. Yeah, I mean, I think the Bible does want you to follow God first, honor leadership next, maybe, but resist when the leaders aren't obeying God, right? Our first responsibility is to be under God. Therefore, if a leader isn't following that, what does that look like? I think Jesus said, other than loving Jesus with all your heart, soul, and mind, right? The other most important commandment that seems to come up is like love thy neighbor. So if there's a way to filter that, and that might be a personal choice, right? Ask yourself, does this leader maybe like a community leader, or even depending on like I guess what kind of culture you're in, right? Maybe it's like even like a tribal leader or it's a mayor. Does this follow love thy neighbor in in a more general sense? You know, there's gonna be more filters than that. I mean it's more nuanced though, right? Because some laws might feel painful, right? To get to a greater good, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah, and then I think we also have to be careful that we're not resisting just because we don't agree. Because that right, that is part of the meaning of that original hypotasso word, is it's like a willingness to be open to listen.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Because you might be wrong. I mean, I'm wrong all the time.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Well, yeah, the question is why are you disagreeing with this leader? Is it because it's triggering something in you? Like, oh, it's because this might make me feel angry, or you know, like what's the emotion behind you feeling like you don't agree? Yeah stripping away emotion. Yeah. What are literally the actions and the laws, what are the fruits of those things?

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Right. So are we being open to authorities and then only resisting when we can see that they are producing ungodly fruit?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah, absolutely. Because if you're generally just disagreeing with all authority because they are simply authority, that's problematic.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

If we then look to love thy neighbor, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

If you actually do need to sort of stand up and resist a force, but also with love, what does that even look like? And I'm sure there's lots in the Bible that can help us get there. But I think a an important takeaway here is that the Bible is not asking us to basically give ourselves up without question to authoritative figures or systems.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Just because they have a title. Right. It's much more than the title, it's looking at what fruit. They're bearing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Which I had always growing up sort of heard these words submit and authority and leaders. And that kind of is how I was taught. Sure. These are your authority people. You have to respect them, sure, follow them, etc. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Like you follow the Catholic priest because he is a leader and like what he says goes.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Right. Well, rebellious Rachel said, I don't a lot of the times I don't feel like this is right.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

And so I ended up just then going the opposite direction into what you just said of all authority is bad.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

How dare you?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Resisting authority because it's authority.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Since you've had that experience, what was authority threatening in you to make you push it away?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

My own safety and autonomy. And I think that's why it's so hard when you read in the Bible to submit to God or submit to leaders or submit to your husband because you're asking me to give up the control that I have over my own safety.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

And so in scripture, that's a little pushed against. So God is saying, you are safe if you submit to me. Right. So that's a hard, that's a very vulnerable position to put yourself in, especially if you've been raised in an environment that was not safe and leaders were not safe.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Right. And and I kind of learned God as authoritarian, which I've had to sort of unlearn because it could be very much that if that's how it's taught, right? Right. No, that that's kind of how I took it, which it wasn't aligning with love. So I had to grow and learn more what God's character is.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Does create safety. Absolutely. And then I think it's just a sort of layer of protection that the Bible is defining leadership as godly and faithful.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

That God as an authoritative being is safe and comforting, but it puts you in a position of I have to trust this and see if it actually is.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Right. But the idea of trusting in something that produces all of these good fruits, that feels a lot more manageable to me than just don't question authority. Oh, absolutely. Which I think that's also maybe a good segue into marriage. This is so fun, especially because we've established I don't feel like I like to submit.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

But the Bible is telling me to do so. So we can't just look at singular verses for this. If you read Ephesians 5, 22, it says, Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. That's kind of scary. But if we read around it, it literally changes the context, I think. Yeah. So I'm gonna read the whole thing, and then there's a bunch that we can talk about. Yeah. From verse 19 through 24. Sure. And verse 19 kind of picks up in the middle of a very long run-on sentence. Sure. So, but that's okay, because it's where we want to start. Ephesians 5, 19. Addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always, and for everything to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Okay. So let's break some of that down.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Let's start with something very interesting that I learned. Yeah, sure. That verse 22 that says wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. The verb submit there doesn't actually appear in the Greek texts. Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. So what is that submit Greek word? There's not a verb in that sentence. So originally it more lexiconically translates to wives to your own husbands as to the Lord. Oh, so that's a very different context. Right. English requires a verb to make a complete sentence. Sure. So the reason we put the word submit there is because it does occur in the sentence right before it. So it's basically repeating a sentiment. Yeah. But when the verb is used for the first time, it's in verse 21. So let me just read again 20 through 22. Yeah. Giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives to your own husbands as to the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

So that feels and sounds a lot more mutual than just very bluntly saying, wives submit to your husbands.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

This is me being maybe like a little conspiratorial, but like the person who originally inserted that word, was there some like were they thinking that that should be the case? I mean, you know, the male translator was like, I want my wife to submit.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

I don't know. Maybe. So the hypotasso word is used right before that. Sure. But literally says to one another. We're submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

That's like an exact contradiction almost to say we're submitting to one another and everyone, and then in the next sentence to say accept.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Kind of, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Yeah. That's how it reads because we've put the verb there.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I do think there's some meaning in the fact that it's clarifying to wives, but it's not clarifying to submit yourself. It's clarifying that we're submitting to each other. And that includes wives submit to your husbands.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

But it's not the sole command.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Right. And it's not even maybe saying submit to your I mean it's saying submit both directions, it sounds like, rather than maybe. And it does it does say if you take the verb out, it still says wives to your own husbands as to the Lord. There's still something that is happening between husbands and wives, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

So here's here's the thing when you're reading this, it kind of leads in with this idea of celebrating each other and submitting each other in reverence to the Lord. And then the following content, it addresses wives specifically, but then it also addresses husbands specifically. Yeah. So it's like we're talking to both of you and we're saying to submit to each other. Yeah. Now we're gonna talk to wives, now we're gonna talk to husbands.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

So I think it's important to keep that like structure to understand that yes, this is commands to us as wives, but husbands have their own set of commands as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

And leading into all of that is the command that we're submitting to each other.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Right. Like at the end of the day, we need to respect one another. Because I think sometimes submission can feel like respect is left out. Yeah. I think what was the phrasing?

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Wives husbands and husbands to your own husbands as to the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah, and I think that is let's respect each other.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

It's not that different than when Jesus says to love your neighbor as yourself or to love your neighbor as I have loved you. Right. It's not that different from that.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Where it's a similar cadence.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah. Almost. It's saying submit to your husbands as you submit to the Lord. But again, that submit word means designed order.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

And it's more of like a relational alignment.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

And that openness, it's not the opposite isn't dominance. The opposite is like resisting or closed-heartedness almost. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

It's basically like, and I think I've heard this before at our church service, but it the submission in that context is almost like it's conversational, right? We are open and honest to each other. We are both under each other. Yeah. Which means that we need to listen and communicate to one another. Right. Rather than someone is bossing someone else around because that doesn't leave room for respect.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Right. And then back to Jesus saying he wasn't here to be served. He was here to serve. So on the very heels of that, husbands are meant to protect and cherish and love their wives as well. It's not just saying, Women, here's your responsibility to your husbands.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

It's talking about both. It's as conversational as it's written as it's actually decreeing.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah, and it's very Jesus forward and God forward in this. It's all led into with bat so back to verse 19, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. So it's very much God forward. We're not submitting to each other for the sake of each other almost. It's yeah, it's almost more spiritual than that, which I think again gives us some comfort where if you're in a marriage that's not feeling or looking godly, or it's literally producing bad fruits, that it's not necessarily saying, wife, you need to passively give up to this person.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, I think passive is a really good word. And again, this goes back to what we talked about with leaders. If you're looking at your husband as a leader, okay, well, is what he's quote unquote commanding of you or what he's wanting the household to look like, is it run through fear or is it run through love? Yeah. And that's kind of a good filter, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah, I think that's really important distinction. Because then you get to where if the leadership looks godly and you align to it, then that's where you begin to sort of mutually serve. And then all of that goes up to the Lord. That's that's what it's all for.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

And not to say that following a leader who is uh leading with the commandments and with God in mind, it doesn't mean that sometimes that won't be uncomfortable, right? Because I imagine that sometimes it's hard loving your neighbor, sometimes following maybe certain Yeah, and I wonder if that's why wives have this reiterated command.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Because it doesn't just mean like align with your husband when you want to. Right, exactly. When he's doing all of his things the right way. You know, we're tasked to be wives even when they're in difficult places.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Right. And I think it's it speaks to maybe even like a compromise because this is conversational. Sometimes maybe it is a little uncomfortable on both parties to reach the destination of is this loving.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Which again is part of that original definition of the word submission. It's that being open to being led. And yes, you can discern am I being led in a way that is producing good spiritual fruit. You have the autonomy to discern that, right? But you have to still be open to being led.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Exactly. So you can't go into it saying, I resist all authority.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

I never listen to a religious leader or or a teacher or you know, because therefore you're you're entering it without loving thine neighbor kind of mindset. Right. And then you're kind of completely closed off to growth at that point. Right. So it's openness to seeing if there's good fruit, or like having discernment from there.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah. Yeah. So again, resisting, Rachel.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Right on the heels of that is naming the husband as the head of the wife. Oh, sure. And so I wanted to look a little bit more at that. What does that mean? If we are submitting to each other, what does it mean that the husband is the head of the wife?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

As Christ is the head of the church. That sounds like the wife is subservient to the husband. So I want to kind of dig into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Absolutely. And it's not to say that the Bible doesn't give certain roles to certain people, and then that's necessarily bad, but I think it's fair for us to discern exactly what was intended.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Ooh, okay, this is good. So the Greek word for head used here is kefeel. Defining that word is it's not actually an authority word. It's source or origin or beginning or sustaining.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

So that that is interesting because when God created humans, he created the human and then out of the man, he made the woman. Or maybe it started as one human and was then split into man and woman.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

But that word is not defined as like a ruler or dominant. Which I guess makes sense. We define it in our culture head as head of the household. So you are in charge. We also tend to lead with our heads. And I think they didn't really they didn't so much have the same weight on heads in that culture that we do.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Right. And I think origin is cool because it doesn't necessarily mean better or more important. Because I think sometimes looking at these words submissive and head and leader, right, it means that someone's maybe more important than someone else.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Right. And we don't like to feel unimportant.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

But in the in the ancient Israelite culture, they looked at the throat as like the gateway to your spirit, right? And your spirit lives down below, like in your belly.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

And so really your head is where a lot of thinking and sort of life-giving function is happening. Like you breathe, you eat, your brain fires neurons, but then that's all going down into like the rest of your body. Sure. Which also has, you know, you can't cut your head off and your head is still living.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Unless you're a cockroach.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Ew, really?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Well, I don't know, is that?

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Oh, I don't know. I hope not. Oh, like chickens.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Or chickens, yeah. I mean, they're not like alive.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

But no, that's just like it's just like nerve spawns. Um, I guess earthworms though, I think, right? Really? Their heads are their butts and their butts are their heads. Well, well, they're not. And if you like cut it in half, I think it can regenerate. Regrow itself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Well.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Not the context here. So then head in this context means origin. What else? Sustaining. Nice. So it means that the husband in this case is helping sustain the family.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

And it specifically says as Christ is to the church.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

So as Christ is sustained for the church.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Is the head, yeah, of the church. So it's again, it's not a decision maker or ruler. It's what those fruits are sort of flowing out of. Yeah. I'm not really sure what that means, but it's interesting and it's a again a much more palatable take than the husband is the boss, and so we should follow what they say.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

And I I also like, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the translation you read, they refer to the church as a her or she.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yeah, they do. So this is ESV. And then when it addresses husbands, it says, husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Maybe that's a different podcast.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Church is referred to as the bride, right? Yeah. So that's interesting. So us wives are the church, and husbands are the head. Yeah. Husbands are the head to the wife, just like Jesus is the head to the church. Yeah. If we're reading that correctly. Interesting, yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of responsibility for a husband. Right. I know. I mean, that is a lot to take on. If you go even further in Ephesians, Ephesians 5 28 says in the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no one ever hated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. So there's nourishing and love there. So we think the source or the head or the sustenance is, you know, we might translate that to decision making or bringing in income for the household or things like that. I think what it's saying here, what Christ does for the church is nourishing and cherishing and love.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

That's that's like our sustaining force, right? That's what sustaining means. It's not necessarily decisions.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah, it's not necessarily sustaining means income. Yeah. And like if the woman is the breadwinner, that somehow that's unbiblical.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah. I like that that head, the source is love, yeah, not leadership.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

So it's like in Matthew where he says, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and all the prophets hang on these two commandments. So as he says, all of the law hangs on love, essentially. And that phrasing, therefore, should also follow that same line of reasoning.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Yeah. So the closing of Ephesians 5, it ends saying, However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. So I think at the end of the day, it's kind of saying husbands are meant to treat their wives as Jesus treats the church.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

And then wives are meant to kind of recognize that godly love and align to it, submit to that. Right. Submit to love. Right. When we are loved and cherished and nourished by our husbands, it's not getting what we want. It's submitting to, I think, producing those spiritual fruits. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Yeah. I guess he never says submitting to love, right? No.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

No, but he does say submit to your husbands as you submit to the Lord. And in Mark it says to submit yourselves to God. Yeah. And God is love, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:07

That's true. So be under God who is love.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Right. So what we're under is not actually power and dominance, it's love.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

And if leadership is functioning accordingly, they should be producing love as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Among the other fruits, but especially because that is the second great commandment. If you love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind, those fulfill all law.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Yeah. So then if we're looking for like my love language is acts of service. So if my husband did the dishes when I get home, I feel loved. Yeah. If he did not do the dishes, I'm like, oh man. And then I will do the dishes as an act of love. But that's not actually what this is talking about. Because that's what I want and what I'm responding to. Sure. And what we're really talking about is that more godly love.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

We're submitting to that, not to the whims of our husbands. But we're also not resisting that for our own whims.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Right. We have whims just as much as they do.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

So as much as we might not want to do something for our husbands, is that our whim that we need to do? Right. Basically, it's like just have discernment, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

What is the purpose that you might not be showing someone love? Yeah. Is it because you have a silent resentment? Is there a cycle? Is there something happening there that can be worked out?

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah, I think that's where actual submission comes in.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

You're not saying, okay, fine, I'll always do the dishes.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

You're saying, let me be open to what's actually happening here. And we're submitting to being loved. The head is loving and nourishing and cherishing.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Yeah, the more we talk about it, it's almost as if we are submitting to love.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yeah. Aw, I love that. I know. That's a really good way to end the episode. I think that's a coverage of the word submit. It still doesn't change the way I hear the word because we hear it so much. But understanding the words that were actually used when it was written, well, yeah, it changes the way that I read these words.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Right. And we live in 2026, not in 400 AD, right? So it is different. Yeah. And it's fair to distinguish. All right. Join us next week for another spicy topic as we delve into the world of idolatry and what that means living it out in life in the 21st century. Can't wait to see. All right, signing off till next time. Thanks for listening. If you are in a relationship or environment that feels unsafe, that's not what God hopes for his daughters, and there are resources to help. You can text start to eight eight seven eight eight or call 1-800-799-SAFE.