Idolatry: Heart Idols

The word idolatry often conjures up visions of ancient statues or golden calves. Today, we think of idols as money, or social media. But in the Bible, idolatry was never just about items and images. It's about where people place their trust, security, and hope.

In this episode, we explore the biblical meaning of the word idol and how idolatry shows up in modern life in ways that are often much harder to see. Drawing on Scripture and the idea of “heart idols,” we look at three core drivers that often shape our misplaced pursuits: the desire for power, comfort, and approval.

This conversation isn’t about shame or legalism. The Bible doesn’t call us to eliminate every source of comfort or enjoyment in our lives. Instead, it invites us to notice when good things quietly take the place of God in our hearts, and how to turn that back over to him.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hi friends and welcome to episode two. We are talking about idolatry today. Spicy. Spicy indeed. We like to just get on in there. So I think we should start with kind of the bigger picture of idolatry. You had a great question.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah, so I always kind of understood growing up and going to church idolatry as active worship of other gods. Yeah. So I always felt like as long as I'm not actively praying to or crying out or singing to literal other named gods. Right. I'm okay. Yeah. But it sort of feels like today in context, we use idolatry as something that's bigger and broader than that and includes much more.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Right. And I think that's interesting you say that because the first time idolatry is explicitly mentioned in the Bible is in Exodus, and it says, You shall have no other gods before me. So that's kind of in line with what you're saying, which some of us feel like, oh, I'm not worshiping Bloody Mary in a ditch, so I'm fine. Right. But actually, maybe idolatry is more than a physical act. Maybe it even gets deeper. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

And so we hear in church a lot today about idols and even finding out what are my idols, what idols am I clinging to. Right. Does feel to me a little bit at odds with that. Because if I don't know this other God and I'm naming it as my God, it doesn't sound like so far starting an Exodus that I would be committing idolatry at that point.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Absolutely. Like in this case, it might not sound like our cell phones would be idolatry. Right. Because to us we don't say it's a God, but the Bible says other things. And so I think it would be a good time to go over some of the Hebrew words that we often see translated into idol. We're gonna start out with the word allele, which means worthless god or nothing idol. We see it in Psalm 96.5 translated to for all the gods of the nations are idols.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Okay, so there it's prescribing value to the idol or the god as nothingness.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah. Not worthy. Right here, you could also read it as for all the gods of the nations are like these nothing idols, these worthless idols. Another way that Hebrew is used for idol is Galul, Gilul, and in Ezekiel 27 it said, Each of you get rid of the vile idols you have set your eyes on. And Galil, Gilul, means detestable idol. It's strongly pejorative.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Okay, so we have gone from nothingness to like a negative, which would be even worse than nothing. Like it's actively causing harm.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Exactly. From a worthless god to a detestable god. And in Ezekiel, yeah, each of you get rid of your vile idols you have set your eyes on. And then the first one in Psalm, it's for all the gods of the nations are idols. So it's more of a statement of fact that there are other idols that you're worshiping. Where in Ezekiel, I think it's more of these vile idols you are using. Okay. And then we have another word for idol, Passel, which means carved idol, graven image. And that is used in Exodus 24. You shall not make for yourself a carved idol. Okay, so Exodus, that's the first use of the word, right? Yeah, so actually Exodus 20 is the very first time that we see anything regarding idoltery specifically with a word meaning idolatry. It's referenced that there's idols prior to Exodus, but the you shall have no other gods before me is the first reference to an idol.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So we go from the word that means like a literal carving or an image of a deity, which I think for them they would create those to be able to connect so that they could worship, right? So we go from that to having a literal image to basically calling those literal images worthless, yeah, and sort of warning against that, and then going all the way to them being detestable.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

They all are a type of idol in Hebrew, just different types of idols, right? Or referencing them in different ways. So Pasel is a carved idol or graven image, Gilil, detestable. We have Alil, which is the worthless god or nothing idol, and then the last one is Meseka, which is a cast idol or molten image, and we see that, of course, in Exodus as well, where he says, He took what they handed him and made it into a cast idol. And of course, that's in regards to the molten calf. So that's kind of a background on the verbiage used, the Hebrew words used and how they were translated for us.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

So is the word idol more literally mean image? Because some of those definitions, it sounds like it's defining an image, like it's saying detestable idol.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, so I mean I think that's a good question. I think an idol may be an image, but not every image is an idol. It's the whole squares or rectangle bit. Yeah, that makes sense. Like sixth grade. Yeah. I think idol is a functional term, not just a visual one, but I think that can certainly fit though. Going back to the beginning, Exodus 20, that's the first time idolatry is mentioned, but do you think that it's also expressed in other parts before Exodus, even though that's a really early book in the in the Bible?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

It is, but it's not necessarily chronologically early. There was a lot of generations between Genesis and Exodus. Yeah. And interesting, I think by the time you get to Moses documenting the Ten Commandments, obviously the commandments are being commanded for a reason. Right. Right? Like if you've gone through all of these generations and don't have an issue with something, it's probably not gonna need to be told to you. But yeah, so when it comes to idol, so even though it's the first time the word is appearing, I might venture to say, isn't listening to the serpent in the garden Absolutely. The first form of idolatry, like a visual example. Yeah, absolutely. The act of idolatry, even if it's not named. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yeah, I mean you make a good distinction between an action showing up before it's a formal law. And so there are a lot of moments, examples of idolatry being a problem before the Ten Commandments. That's just when it was kind of like, okay, we really gotta kneel this. Right. God's saying, Okay, you're doing this, and I need you to stop. Yeah, absolutely. And interestingly enough, I think in in Genesis, when Jacob tells his household to put away foreign gods, the same as in Genesis again, Rachel steals Lebens, household gods.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Um Do we know which word is being used in those? I'm curious, because we kind of go from the commandment to not worship idols to getting rid of these household idols. And I'm like, what even are these household items? Where did they come from and why, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, absolutely. In Genesis, when they reference household gods, the word is teraphim, which is small household deities, it's objects associated with protection, divination. In Genesis 35, we see the word foreign gods as translated on our end, and oh, the foreign is Nikar, and Elohim, as we know, is another way to say god. So quite literally, gods of the foreigner is how that's translated.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Even at that time, they're making literal images or figures of other gods so that they can worship them.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, absolutely. So I think you had a good point with Eve and the serpent. It's not verbally stated as idolatry, but the act itself functions as that.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Right. Because I think what I've been taught in church more recently is that idolatry is the act of putting something else before God. So in that case, the serpent was able to persuade Eve, like, yeah, you actually do want to do this. What's gonna happen if you do? Yep. And so just by listening to that after God had explicitly said, only listen to me, it was putting that before God's word, which is what I've come to understand as idolatry. So I'm curious on how we get from these words of meaning physical representation of other deities to putting something above God. Like where did it go from another literal God to anything?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Like our cell phones. Right, where does it turn from you've created a physical sculpture object to like now your mind is actually performing an act of idolatry?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Right. And you know, you could say our phones are objects, and I get that, but then we also talk about things like comfort or finances or other people, even relationships.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, absolutely. And I think Ezekiel 14 3 kind of answers your question: where do we go from physical idols to internal idols? And the verses, they have set up idols in their hearts. This is a pivot though, right? Now it's no statues, temples, it's internal.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, and which idol word is used in that verse?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

So in Ezekiel 14.3, the Hebrew word used is galulem, galulim, which translates to idols. So it's the s it this is the strongly pejorative term that Ezekiel favors, so it's a nasty term. He's like, this is detestable and defiling. It's not just a image.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

So yeah, it's it's not just an image of something else, it's actively causing harm, and now we're creating them in our hearts rather than needing like a figurine to represent it.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Absolutely. Okay. Yikes. Uh yeah, exactly. So now this is turning from something you don't bow to, but something that you carry internally. So, in terms of why did the shift happen from an external idol to something more internal, I think it's because the leaders had abandoned their public shrines after they were exiled, but the beliefs like were essentially carried with them.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Okay, so it when it became more difficult, there's also a lot in the earlier in the old testament of people's idols being stolen or destroyed. Right. So when it got to the point where we don't have these physical things to channel that worship, guess what? We can still worship them. Yeah. Now they're in our hearts.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Yeah, and I think Ezekiel here is is talking more about like where is your allegiance lie? Like that's idolatry. Right. That's kind of the root of it, right? Yeah. And I think pivoting from that to like our real life, that makes it a lot harder to distinguish sometimes what is an idol, right? If it's not a physical object. Now we're looking at what Ezekiel is saying. Okay, what are you carrying in your heart that you're putting above God? And like, what's the filter to kind of discern that? Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Especially because I think the places that's truly the case, if we're internalizing, we don't even want to look at those. Yeah. I would rather say, yeah, I'm I'm idolizing my cell phone. Let me put my cell phone away and ignore it for a week. I wish I didn't even have it. That's a lot easier to say than I idolize my own comfort. I seek comfort and safety above all else.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I don't want to admit to that because that means I have to change that. Yeah, right. That something that we're doing that comforts us could be bad, doesn't feel good. Right. But cell phones inherently aren't always bad. And therein lies the problem, right? Where we still are going to use this device. How do we use it in a way that's not idulterous? Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Same with safety and comfort. Yeah. I don't think I don't think safety or comfort in themselves are in opposition to God. I don't think he wants us always in panic mode or suffering. Right. Absolutely. But it can very easily become an idol because it gets placed above God.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Right. So, like a helpful filter, I think, for me is if say something distressing happens to you, say you read something on the news that's really upsetting, do you go to your phone to scroll for comfort first, or are you going to pray first or to your Bible first or to talk to a friend for counsel first?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, that's a good point. And I think it might not even be chronologically first. Sure. It might not necessarily mean if the very first thing I do is tell somebody something. I think it's more of what's bigger. Yeah. Where am I actually relying on and investing in?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. Say you're distressed, you see something on TV, you go to your phone, you're scrolling, and then you put it down after, say, ten minutes, and you're like, Oh, I really I'm gonna call up Rachel and see what she thinks about this. Oh look, yeah, let's pray on it. Right. At that point, you're not necessarily putting the wisdom and guidance of the cell phone above God. So maybe it's not chronologically.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

No, but I think it's more weight. So is the scrolling the solution or your end to that? Yeah. Is this my true comfort? Like, did you get what you needed and now you're good to go? Yep. That's the problem with idols, right? Is that they never actually give us what we need or want. Cell phones are easy for me because I would love to not have a cell phone, but it gets you into those cycles. So I've scrolled, I saw cute videos, now I feel better. Yeah. So I'm just gonna set that aside and move on. Right. But I'm gonna still be in that same pattern and I'm gonna need to keep doing that. And I'm not actually turning to God with what I need. Yeah. What he's needing from me to change.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Right. Yeah. In the process of being distressed in something, what are you going to? What are you seeking true comfort in?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Well, that kind of leads me to another question about idols, which is it's made to sound in the old testament like these idols are evil and actively damaging. But when let's just use comfort as an example, if I'm seeking comfort and I'm idolizing that, yeah, it doesn't feel doesn't really feel so horrible. Sure. So what's the like how do we even discern that? How is comfort damaging? Or even even my cell phone scrolling. Like I'm not I'm not hurting anyone by doing that. I'm not rejecting God by doing that.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

A lot of the things we do aren't inherently all bad. It's just when it crosses a line to be fulfilling something that God can then in turn be fulfilling that you're not allowing him to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

So do you think that's the same for the images that they had and the statues?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, I mean I think it's the same idea. This could be spicy, but you know, discussion over wearing a crucifix as like a necklace, right? Is that an idol? I think it's the power that you attribute that object. So I like rocks.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

I'll have a polished rock or like a crystal or like the little obelisk things. Sure, yeah. And I will have some of those and I like them and I hold them. Yeah. I like the way that they feel. Sure. Is that not idolatry because I'm not putting it above God? I'm not using it as like my source of healing or energy. Right. Or is the fact that I'm having an image that I'm using in the first place a problem?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, I mean, I think this is debatable, right? But in my mind, it's what power are you giving it? If you're like, oh, I just like the way that this feels, this is comforting to me. No. But if you're saying this rock holds power to heal people, and I'm gonna come to this rock and not to God, maybe that's going too far. But it I think it's fair to say that he's given us objects like medicine that we take and it does make us feel better. And that's not an idol.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Okay, so if you look at the Garden of Eden, and God said you can have all the fruits from all of these trees, just not this one tree. And then obviously we went to the one tree and were tempted. Do you think it's like similar to that? So it doesn't mean a cell phone's bad, it doesn't mean like a crystal's bad. Right. Are we using that to become our spiritual well over the Holy Spirit, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Are you doing this instead of maybe that's a good filter? Right? Because I actually find a lot of comforting TikToks on Christian TikTok that have been helpful for me. That could be a good tool to use, right? Oh, there's some good regulation techniques that you could find on on people.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

One of my rocks just says it's carved into it and it just says breathe. And so I can just pick it up when I'm like feeling vibrating and I can just put my thumb over it. I just feel calmer. Yeah, totally. I'm not trying to go to that instead of God or put that over God. It's more of just like these are the things that I'm surrounded by. Some make me feel better and some make me feel not good.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Right. Yeah, and I think it's fair to say a lot of things in life make us feel good. Walking, planting trees, yeah, tending to our garden.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Sun, when you walk outside in the winter, but the sun is strong enough that it like makes your skin warm.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

There's a word for that too, I think. Is there? Yeah. Or if not, we should make one.

unknown 17:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Okay, yeah. So the internet says an object becomes an idol when it's given functional authority. Basically, is it trusted for protection, guidance, healing? It is consulted in place of God. It is obeyed, it carries sacred power apart from God's will. That's an interesting one. Are there things that carry sacred power that are in God's will?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

I might argue that my little breathe rock, I'm just trying to physically regulate my anxiety. Yeah. And so is that against God's will? I don't know that it is. No, I don't think so. So if I were to use that little rock, if I had to like carry it with me to important events, yeah. Like I have to always have it there, or if I need to make a decision, I'll go to my breathe rock. Yeah. That that might be crossing over those lines of giving it more power than it's meant to have. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Or like I only consult my rock for healing. Right. I think it's is this object that says breathe, is it an authority figure? Yeah, and to me it's not. Right. It's just a little support tool. Does it supply security? I mean, I think some of it is not black and white of what might be an idol, but I also think it's fair not to get to the point where we're looking around our house at everything that we're using and saying, Right, am I in danger of all of these items in my house? Am I idolizing things? Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yeah, so I'm curious if Rachel, the Bible Rachel, not me, Rachel, came to my house, what would she steal out of it as my false god? Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, that's a that's an image. I bet she would take my laptop. If the OG Rachel comes into Rachel's house now.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah, to take my idols. I don't think she would take my breathe rock. I think she would take my laptop. For sure. Even though I'd probably be like, yes, take it.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah. I know it's a weird thing because I think we have complicated relationships with them with social media, like with our work or laptops or you know, all the things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

So we heard in church recently actually, I think it was just a few weeks ago. Yeah. I think this was a published concept. So it's out there. Somebody pulled it together, but there's layers of idols, and at the top layer is all the things. So it's the cell phone, the breathe rock, like alcohol, whatever else it is. But under that layer, things boil down into like three major idols that people keep in their hearts. Internal idols. The items or the habits are actually feeding into one of these three major categorically, you mean? Yeah. I don't remember the three. I think we can pull them up. I remember that comfort was one because that's mine. So I remembered it when I saw it. So it's from a book, Counterfeit Gods, by Tim Keller. Oh. He basically distills idolatry into three core categories: heart idolatry, not necessarily statues.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Power or control, approval or love, and comfort or safety.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Oh, okay. So power and control is the first one. So a desire to manage outcomes, people, dominance. So that might look like having an obsession over achieving success, intellect, leadership, which again, this is hard. It's not that right. Like it's okay also to be successful. Yeah. Being right. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. So, in terms of the power and control aspect, Rachel, what do you think then because it's okay to achieve and be a leader, how do you know at what point is that taking it too far to an idolatry state? Yeah, that's the question.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Girl, I don't know, you tell me. I think um our our pastor at church said recently that it's the things that you feel angry about when you think you're being challenged on them. So if you were to tell me I need to give up more power, I'd be like, sure, boo, because I don't necessarily seek or I'm I'm not holding on to power and control as kind of defining my worth. Right. Where comfort and safety. Yeah. When you threaten my comfort and safety, I actually do get really mad.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Right. So comfort and safety, desire for stability, pleasure, and peace, common expressions of this are found in money. So it's like, what are we comfortable with? Oh, okay. I need to get a raise, I need to get a new job.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, it doesn't, I don't even think it has to look that extreme. So I don't know why this is the case, but on Tuesdays, Tuesday, like around four o'clock, I need wine. And it it's not the same on Wednesday nights or Thursday nights or even Friday nights. For some reason, on Tuesdays, four o'clock, I need wine. And if somebody was to suggest to me you actually don't need wine, yeah, I would be like, no, like don't tell me what I need and don't need. I need wine. It's just gonna calm me down, like give me a nice peaceful evening so I can get through the rest of this week. Yeah. And it that really fires me up. Yeah. But it's just that one, it's just Tuesday at 4 p.m. Right. Are you idolizing that I'm idolizing that because of, I guess, the structure of my Tuesdays and the full week? Yeah, it makes it feel like I have a little bit of just reprieve, uh, even a little bit of like indulgence. I want this, so I'm gonna have this. And that kind of sends me into the rest of the week with a little bit of like comfort.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

I could question is there an aspect of control in that though, of the first mechanism of power and control being an idol as well. Like you are controlling what you want to intake when you want to.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, but I think the reason I want to intake it is for comfort. It's not for control. Yes, it's for comfort. Yeah, I can replace that glass of wine, right? I could go take a bath. Sure. I mean, sometimes tea will do it. Yeah, usually not. Like it I'm needing something else. If I go to the gym, I might. I wanted to go to the gym, but I go to the gym instead, like that will do it. Sure. But what remains true is that if I don't get some sort of pleasure or comfort in that Tuesday, like four to six PM, I'm just a nightmare for the rest of the night.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah. So I mean, because in itself, like wine at 4 p.m., nothing really problematic with that. It'd stand alone, right? But if I was to threaten that, if you threaten it, I get mad. If Rachel came in and like swiped that out of your hand, she just like smacks it out of your hand. Oh, I red wine all over.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

I would be so mad.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Your dog's lapping it up. Yeah. So in knowing this though, what are action steps that you take? Because you've obviously realized this after that church sermon, and you're like, oh, I don't know if I like that feeling.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah. Well, and so for me, it's a lot bigger. It's not a wine problem, it's a comfort problem. And that actually, I'm just using Tuesday, 4 p.m. as an example. Of a bigger picture. Yeah. My comfort idols actually like permeate in a lot of different ways and look like a lot of different things. I think what I'm trying to do is just focus on that comfort side of things and actually just go there. So I'm not, I'm not actually trying to identify what are all the things that give me comfort and can I start restricting them or pray instead when 4 p.m. hits. Like I'm not actually doing that. I think I'm going more toward the comfort in my heart. If I'm not feeling safe, can I work over time in that bigger picture with my relationship with God and saying, like, help fill me up here where I'm obviously feeling lacking? Yeah. So that then maybe those external idols actually just feel less important.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Right. So it's like you're looking at it as a bigger picture of I'm just praying on and working on a grander plan of if God is helping me navigate comfort in a different way, the trickle-down effect will be there for that Tuesday wine will not feel as important. Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I think that's why I like that concept of the three heart categories that most idols fall into.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Because then instead of looking at like this tangled mess of like modern idols, yeah. I can just look at where is my gap in my heart. And for me, it is comfort and safety.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, because it's not like oh cell phone for everyone, right? It's like, no, no, no. Cell phone fits under for people, maybe even different categories. Maybe cell phone's power and control. Maybe it's approval and love. Maybe it's comfort and safety. Like for me, it would probably be a comfort safety thing. Like, okay, I feel safe getting a little dopamine. I don't have to think about the responsibilities I have. I'm comfortable here. But I think some people a cell phone would be approval and love, right? Yeah. The things that I'm posting, am I getting likes from that? Am I being seen? And maybe power and control as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah. And then again, I think the problem is not the fact that, for example, likes can make you feel seen. That's not the problem. I think the problem is when you you don't feel seen or love exactly. You're using the likes and the resulting dopamine to solve that. Obviously, it never solves it, so then you're just in a cycle.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, like if it's fair to say if you post something and just don't get a much of a reaction, like it's fair to be like, oh, that kind of sucks. That doesn't mean it's you're idolizing it.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah. Or if I open, you know, my phone and I'm like, oh, I got four likes on this thing. Woo-hoo. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

I think it's different for every person. 100%. Like if you're going on to a social media platform and saying, Oh my gosh, I didn't get any likes on this. My whole day is ruined. My worth is completely tied up in this. Yeah. That might be more, okay, well, is this actually an idol for approval and love?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah. You know, and I think that's an important distinction too, because you have people who make a living being on social media where just as an example, your likes will literally translate to your money. Yeah. So it's not to say like you shouldn't care about how many likes that you get. Right. It's more about examining where is the need for those likes coming from. Right. Like what's the greater picture? Right. And then I think I would even go as far as to say if you realized that those likes are actually coming from a place of needing to feel seen or loved. That doesn't necessarily mean cold turkey or social media. Oh, exactly. No, I think it might actually mean go to God with that. Yeah. And God work with me on this. How can I actually feel loved? Like I'm not feeling loved.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah, because actually I think completely cutting off something like that, say you're like, I'm never using my cell phone again, is actually has the opposite. It like it wouldn't be healthy and it would be problematic because if you're saying, Oh, I think I'm idolizing this, I'm never touching my phone again, you're still not taking it to God. You're still not figuring out what the core thing that's saying, Oh, maybe I don't feel worthy, right? Like if you're saying social media is my worth and without it I'm nothing, God would argue, no, no. Yeah, you are worthy, you were loved, you were beautifully made. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

So I think all God is wanting us to do is like turn our faces toward Him, right? Not toward all of the other things, and there's a lot of things that we can come up with to combat those three needs that we have.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Totally. So like complete avoidance, in my opinion, is probably not gonna be the most helpful first option. I'm sure for some things, maybe though, right? Like if people are like sober, that's maybe different, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Sure. If it comes from a place of like you're trying to fill that gap of love. Yeah. Okay, so say you've got sober, that's great, and that's really hard work you need to continue. But have you addressed the fact that you weren't feeling loved with God? Or is something else gonna come in and fill its place?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Because if you're completely avoiding and taking something out of your life, which like we said can be fair sometimes, but if you don't address it with God, something's gonna come in and crawl into that space. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, like when I go take a bath instead of drink my wine. Yeah. And so maybe it's not something that I need to do differently at 4 p.m. on Tuesdays, but maybe it's a longer term thing of feeling more comfortable and safe with God. So I have less need to like provide for myself.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Or maybe you still continue 4 p.m. wine on Tuesdays, but you reframe it, not I need this wine. Maybe it is just actually a subtle internal shift where the action doesn't change much. Yeah, like my breathe rock. Your breathe rock, exactly. Like you're still you still have your 4 p.m. wine on Tuesdays, but instead of this visceral idea and mentality around I need this for me, it's just, oh, this actually might be comfortable for me right now. Or like, oh, this might taste good. Yeah. This might be like a fun thing to do instead of if I don't get this, I will be a disaster tonight. Right. So just reframing the action itself rather than avoiding it. While still looking at the original root of it, giving that to God. Right. Yeah, I think the reframing, the cognitive reframing there would be taking it to God and saying, Oh, yeah, I think I need to just look at this a little differently rather than avoid it. What do you think your heart idol is? I know, let me see. Of the three. Oh, yeah, definitely comfort and safety, probably. It is an interesting thing though, because with ADHD, with the rejection sensitivity being strong, I think there probably is an aspect of approval and love that is tied in with that. Like, and also being an empath and wanting to feel helpful, that kind of ties into approval and love too, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah. I'd have to think of how that's showing up. Well, and I think maybe the question is not which of the three is more natural to our core, but which of the three is lacking to a sense that you're you're finding external sources to fill it.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Right. Like it's so prominent that it's too uncomfortable to sit with.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Right. I don't hate control or power, but I think that's just that's not where my gap is. And it's not difficult for me to say to God, this is in your hands now. Yeah. So that's just not where my idols happen, even though it's still part of my human nature.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, no, I agree. I think in some cases, like if I'm in childbirth, for instance, it was like, okay, like I am accepting of this pain and I'm like giving it to you. I was able to kind of channel that power somewhere else. That just wasn't where my idols would lie. So it was easier for me. But if it comes to an approval love, comfort safety thing, maybe it wouldn't be that easy. Like, why is it that we both are more okay giving up power and control?

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Well, I did, I think, two years of therapy that really helped me with that before I was going back to church and trying to build a relationship with God. So I have had problems with that in the past. Yeah. And maybe just through the process of working with a therapist was able to just see where those are happening and and where it becomes a problem. Yeah. Not just simply I'm in control of my car while I'm driving, but like if I don't feel in control of a conversation, I'm gonna like melt down. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think therapy helped me a lot.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

So it's it's shifted a little bit. I think it's also fair if we are idolizing something that you're not wrong or bad or broken because it is human nature for us to want to be comfortable, our brains seek predictability. All three of those things, yeah. The love and the comfort and the control. Absolutely. Because I think a lot of people have shame and guilt over maybe cell phone use. Like I just hear that one a lot. So reframing it to be not such a guilty thing can be helpful too if you're talking with God in in that process. Because if if you're letting it eat you away like that, oh I'm so guilty, I shouldn't be doing this, I shouldn't be doing this, like that's also not honoring God either.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Okay, so if idolatry is basically us putting these like external forces above God and what God can provide for us and sort of trusting in them to find those things like love, comfort, and control. Yeah. Then where do we get people that we name as idols? Because that almost feels like something very different. Because you you'll talk about who's your idol, like my dad is my idol. Oh, saying that that is an image or a model that you kind of live up to.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Right, like, oh my gosh, I totally idolize Madonna or something, and they're like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. So we we don't use that at term in a negative way.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yeah, we actually hear it often as like sort of interchangeable with like a hero or an aspiration. Like a mentor or something like that. American idol. It's literally this 20-year reigning American TV show. So So is it actually two different things or is it all the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 33:13

I mean, I think that is a good example of just using a word. I think we're just using it very differently. It's a biblical versus metaphor, because I think you named it right. We're not actually saying they're my idol. Some people might worship Madonna, but I think in this case it's saying like, oh, they're inspirational or a role model. So maybe actually we're just using that term kind of flippantly. Yeah, well, which I think is really a problem, right? Because it sort of washes out the rest of it. Right. It makes it harder to now distinguish, okay, but we say idol sometimes and it means a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Right. So I can find Madonna an amazing inspiration and even like aspire to model Madonna, but as long as I'm still keeping like a square relationship with God and making that my first model, right? I'm not committing idolatry by worshiping Madonna. Right. But so then should we not even be using the word?

SPEAKER_00 34:04

It's like, where's the line? Because I think there's a difference between idolizing means the way that we use it is like, oh, it's admiration. Okay. Right. Or aspiration. Or aspiration, right? I want to learn from you. Yeah. So the way that we use it's like, I want to learn from you. There's something here that I like, versus I think idolatry says, I need to be you or you fulfill me.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Right. You are my source.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yes. So there's a distinguishing line. But you're right, we use idol sometimes, not in the way that it is biblically.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Right. So I think that's a problem for me because I'm not gonna want my kid to grow up with that flippant understanding. Right. And as long as she doesn't feel like she's actively worshipping something, yeah, then she's clear, and idolatry is not even a subject that she needs to worry about.

unknown 34:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

And I think I would actually say, like, no, this is something we need to learn about from the beginning, so we're aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Absolutely. You can really respect something, that's the line, right? Admire respect, but once it starts to become all-encompassing, you know, but I think that's like a personal choice. Is this now starting to fulfill something that God should be fulfilling? Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

So I wonder if we have these three kind of core heart idols that we tend to like feed everything else into. I wonder if uh, like we kind of looked at Bible verses that warn against worshiping idols. Yeah. Um, I wonder if we can like maybe a verse for each of those heart idols that actually tells us why we don't need to turn to idols. Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Like if we're gonna replace an idol, how does that look? Given the three core heart idols by Tim Keller, which are power, approval, and comfort, you might have an idol that fits in this category. And so your question is, okay, well, is there scripture to help me in these moments?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, to start to directly draw back to God on that.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

If I'm feeling my comfort or safety compromised, I trust that God can actually be there, be in control. Right. And so the first one in terms of power and control, I think a helpful one is 2 Corinthians 12, 9, which says, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. And so we're rooting our power and dependence on God. So I think that's a helpful one.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah, my power is made perfect in weakness. And I think perfect means complete as God's design, right? Yeah, absolutely. Unnecessarily flawless. So power is finished in weakness. That's interesting. Yeah. Because that feels opposite to the way that we look at we look at power and strength.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

My power is made perfect in weakness, is a beautiful sentence because it is so counterintuitive to our culture.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And my grace is sufficient for you. Yeah, it's and in terms of approval, Galatians 1 10 says, if I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. Oh, I like that. Did Paul say that? Yeah, that must be Paul from Galatians. So it reorients worth away from human approval and towards belonging to God. Yeah, so it's basically like we don't need the approval of human, we're seeking the approval of God instead.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Right, because Jesus, the perfect human, did not have the approval of man. Yeah. At least not universally, not even close. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

This just reminds me of in John, Jesus says, if the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. I love that so much. I know. I just like I think you and I read that. We were together and read that, and we were both like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah. Because I'm a people pleaser. And that rejection sensitivity, we've talked about that. When people are not happy with me, I feel like I have failed. And so to hear Jesus saying when that's the case, and it's even worse, like if I did something wrong and you're mad at me, fine. But sometimes people just don't like you. Yeah. And that's like devastating to me. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

That can feel like disapproval, not comfortable. Remember they hated me first. Yeah. I mean, that's powerful, right? So to go back to that and remember, I it's actually okay if a human doesn't approve of me if I have the approval of Christ. Yeah. I think that could be a whole episode for another day. And the third heart idol is comfort and safety. And so a good scripture to come to when that's feeling challenged is Psalm 23, 4. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Yeah, that's good. I think there's a lot of comfort scripture.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Ton of comfort.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah, you could just basically just open your psalms. Yeah, that's good. And this is important too, right? Like comfort doesn't mean you're not in pain and God never promises a pain-free life, but it means that God is there with you in the discomfort.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. What are we asking people to do or sit with? And I think it's, you know, we hear a lot of trying to identify your idols and what like what are they and submit them to God. I think we might even just be saying, though, very simply, to um just take it to God.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

But totally. Like maybe you don't know what your idol is, or maybe you do and you don't know how to manage it.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

And you don't have to take that pressure or shame or guilt, like you said, you don't have to take that on. You can just turn and say, What do I do with this?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

No, I think that's spot on. This isn't us saying, Okay, figure out your idol and you figure that out. So instead of carrying that anxiety and kind of separating and saying, Oh, I'm not even gonna talk to God about this, I need to figure this out first, come to Him as a fixed human.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

It's like, no, actually, this feels uncomfortable. I'm gonna pray about it and see what comes of that.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Yeah, and I think understanding those our tendencies and our human nature are going to exist. So rather than trying to internalize it, fix it, yeah, figure it out, I think we can just turn it over, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's helpful too, you know, like we've talked about, prey on it and then meditate after, see if something comes to you, you know? See if God does have direction. Yeah. He's not gonna leave us with nothing if we're coming to him with something. Yeah. Even if we can't figure it out right away. Right, and it could take some time, right? Yeah. Yeah. So some patience there too. But I think this was a really good conversation on idols. Yeah, I'm actually excited.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

I'm gonna go try to find as much comfort scripture as I can. Yeah. And see what I can do with that.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

No, absolutely. And I hope you guys join us next week as we talk about the Holy Spirit. Is that what we're talking about? Sure. Okay. I guess it was all I don't think we did. Until next time.