Holy Spirit 1: Spiritual Anatomy

Holy Spirit E1 - Mind, Body, Soul… and Spirit? Where does Heart fit in? In this episode, we explore the biblical language of soul, spirit, mind, heart, and body, looking at the Hebrew and Greek words used in the Bible and how Scripture actually uses these ideas. What did biblical authors mean when they talked about the heart, or soul? Where does the spirit fit in? And what do we do with modern phrases like “follow your gut”?

As we trace these words through Scripture, we discover that the Bible doesn’t treat humans as neatly separated components. Our thoughts, emotions, physical bodies, and spiritual lives are deeply intertwined. What we feel can show up in our muscles. What we believe shapes our emotions. And our spirit isn’t isolated from the rest of us—it’s woven into the whole system.

Rather than a tidy diagram of separate parts, Scripture points us toward a more holistic understanding of who we are: complex, integrated beings designed to live fully connected to God.

This episode begins a deeper conversation about the Holy Spirit by first understanding the anatomy of the human spirit itself.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Today we're talking about the Holy Spirit and the spiritual anatomy that's often discussed, which looks like mind, soul, body, spirit, and heart.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

What will be interesting is to look at how does the Bible refer to our different kind of anatomy systems? Yeah. And then in our modern minds, what's the difference? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

How culturally we see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah. Is your heart actually the same as your mind, or is your mind the same as your soul? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Are the words also interchangeable in the Bible? Like what is the root meaning of these words and what is the guidance? Yeah. If that makes sense. And I think a good starting scripture is 1 Thessalonians 5 23. Sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And I think why that's helpful is because it is really distinguishing the fact that spirit and soul and body are three different things. Right. They're different parts of one person's body. And they're not saying mind there, right. Right. Or heart. Nope. Yep. So it's which is interesting because I think a lot of the time we see mind, body, soul. Yes. And in this it's actually saying spirit, soul. And you don't often see those next spirits. Soul and body. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Culturally, I think now. Yeah. I think we might actually lump spirit and soul together. I think the Bible distinctly separates soul and spirit.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, what is the difference between soul and spirit? How are they differentiated? And what are their purposes? So there's a lot of scripture that mentions them as separate. So we have Hebrews 4.12 says the word of God divides soul and spirit. Again, we see in Luke 1, 46 through 47. My soul glorifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. Definitely two different things. Yeah, so we know that they are distinguished as two separate parts. So then I looked into what are the Hebrew words. Are they ever interchangeable? Are they different? They are definitely different words for soul and spirit, but also in my research, I found out that it doesn't mean that they're always sharply different things because it's still part of one working system. Right. You know what I mean? It's almost like parts of a car work together, and sometimes you could probably see it as one whole part.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

We see a lot in the Bible about the church and the metaphor with different body parts. So like each of us is a different body part in the church, and therefore we're all different. The church also has a very unified purpose, and we're supposed to be functioning in unity and harmony. And then when you look at our bodies today, I think we're finding that a lot in like medicine and science too. We sure over the past, I don't know, I guess a couple hundred years, as like modern medicine has emerged, yeah, we've really compartmentalized all of our systems. Yeah. And what we're starting to find now is they should not be treated as separately as we treat them. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

If you are making a hierarchy of soul, spirit, mind, heart, which we kind of do in like Western medicine.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

If you're making them a hierarchy rather than one working body, that creates problems.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yep. And then we often treat the body or we treat the mind. I think the soul is you get what you get. I don't know if we really treat souls, but but it's actually physically driven. Totally. Or yeah, vice versa.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Well, yeah, and that goes into like the somatic therapy that I do, right? How our mental traumas or anxieties can store themselves in our body. So it's all it is all connected.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Right. And that was wild to me when I started to learn about that. Like, what do you mean I'm storing emotions in physical areas of my body? It doesn't make sense because we don't learn about our bodies that way. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

So I think this is coming from a culture where they don't separate things as much as we do. So even though they're separate Hebrew words and clearly separate Hebrew words, they're not always conceptually necessarily different. Like linguistically, they're different, but conceptually maybe not. And it'll be an interesting journey for us to see if we can grasp what that really means.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Yeah. So let's talk about spirit and soul then. Um, I was talking to somebody recently and I suggested that idea that soul and spirit are two different things. Oh I attempted to define them. I don't know if I was right or not. Yeah. But this person I was talking to was like, I've never heard that soul and spirit are two different things before.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I don't know if it could be helpful to like go over the the Hebrew words and kind of how they're specifically defined. Yeah. We have for soul nefesh. And this word is very concrete in Hebrew. It can mean life itself, inner self, emotions. So I think we see soul as a living being person. I think you and I inter have interpreted soul as you get it when you're born, or even I guess at conception. You know what I mean? Yeah. When your being begins, I think that's when our soul begins.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Is that debated though? I think maybe when it begins is debated. But I think maybe we generally agree that the soul is sort of your your like your life force.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. So the soul then encompasses personality, would you say? I think so. Even if our personality can change and shift, but that's all part of our soul? Our aliveness.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Our aliveness. So we translate Nefesh a lot into soul, but it sounds like in the Bible the word actually is referring to an entire living person, not like a disembodied little like we think of it as like a little packet of life force and it can like go somewhere. I think what the Bible is defining it as is an alive person.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

So Nefesh is living being or throat, but also interesting that it sounds like when it was translated to Greek, the concept shifted to something else. To more of a little packet of aliveness. Yeah. So it wasn't really a change when they translated the Bible from Hebrew to Greek, but it was more of, as this website is saying, a translation stretch. So Nefesh didn't change meaning from Hebrew to Greek, but some nuance got blurred, it sounds like. So in the Hebrew Bible, like we said, Nefesh is very kind of it's a concrete word. It's not something that's subjective. But when it switched from Hebrew to Greek, it was actually translated as psyche, which means a mortal inner soul that can be separable from the body, and it's like the real you trapped in flesh. Right. So that's not really how it works in Hebrew. So it's not like they were changing theology, because I think the idea maybe still stands. But I think Greek readers had more of this duality. It was almost a shift culturally, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yeah, and I think that's carried forward to us.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Right, exactly. It was the beginning of this duality of like we need to have really specific separate parts to understand them better.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Where I think in Hebrew it was more of a fluid Yeah, and so it sounds like more literally translated in Hebrew, it means a breathing creature. Yeah. Someone that is alive, not the actual force that is housing your life. So then what are we agreeing that soul means then? Well, I'm still curious about why it also means throat. I mean, which feels like a whole other concept. So as I understand it, the throat was seen as like the kind of your gateway or your seat of life. Like me in particular, I think of everything sort of above my throat, because that's where all the thoughts happen, and that's where I see, and that's where I hear. But I think they saw it as your life actually happens from what you're taking in through your throat, like food, water, air. It's like literally sustenance is what that gives. So the throat is like the door or the gateway to being alive. Yeah, quite literally. But we think of throat as, again, a specific body part. And so how does Nefesh mean both a full living creature and also throat?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Right. I think it's almost the idea of we have tissues for our noses, but the brand Kleenex, now we just call all tissues Kleenex. And band-aids. And band-aids, right? That's like that's a brand. Right. This could be totally off, but I almost feel like the word originally maybe meant throat, and then people started using it as like lively being because, like you said, it gives us sustenance. The throat was vital to being alive. It was like the OG band-aid cleenex scenario.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So this is interesting. Can I read some of the different words that the single word Nefesh has been translated to in the Bible from the original Hebrew word, what you can currently read in English in the Bible? Wow, okay. Okay. I don't even think I can read all of these, but here are some. Any, anyone, appetite, being, body, breath, corpse, creature. Corpse? Yep. That seems opposite. Dead person, deadly, death, defenseless, desire, discontented, endure, feelings, fierce, greedy, heart, herself, himself, human, hunger, life, lifeblood, living creature, longing. That's nuts. We're going through the whole alphabet here. Man, men, mind, myself, souls, strength, themselves, thirst, throat, will, wishes, yourself. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

So I think the fact that it can mean death or dead person kind of proves the point, then, that it's not an immortal, separable soul.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah, I think what I've heard explained around this word is that in the Hebrew context, it was not something that can be separated from your body. Right. If your body's dead, your soul is dead. And so according to the Hebrew Bible, your soul, your nephesh, it dies with your body and it's resurrected with your body. It can't be pulled out of your body and go somewhere. Which is so opposite of what we think of culturally. Right. I think of literally my soul floating out of my dead flesh.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

No, I remember my friend and I like ended up spinning out on a gravel road in the middle of New Mexico, and it was kind of scary. You could kind of see your body, right? Yeah, like an out of body. Totally. I mean, not to say that that didn't happen, but I don't think it would be your soul then. That can be separated. Right. It would have just been a different process, but we use that. Oh, my soul left my body. Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

But like, can it? According to the Hebrew Old Testament, I don't think that it can.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

And Nefesh can refer to a dead body. So if Nefesh were an immortal soul, this phrase would make no sense.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah. So we talked about psyche and nefesh. There's also the word ruach, which means breath. Sometimes we have translated it to soul. Which word? Ruach.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Ruach?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

So does this go back to soul and spirit sometimes conceptually being part of the same thing, even though they are separate?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

I think so. I think ruach being like life breath, that might actually be more what we're thinking of as like that life force that can leave you. Right. Versus Nefesh is like literally alive or deadness. Dead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Right. So at its core, rua means movement of air, but rua is where it's been translated to spirit, right? But it's not easily a separate defining term because it can also mean breath, spirit, wind, life energy.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Life energy seems like it could technically be both.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

I think what we're getting at is that the in the Hebrew, the nefesh isn't actually a force. It's more like your state of Okay. Are you alive? Are you dead? You're a creature, basically.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, here's your throat that gives you life, but it's not necessarily the life itself.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

And then the life itself, is that the rua?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

I think so. Well, and it's I think it depends on how you define life. So if you think about like when you die, if your brain activity stops, you're sort of functionally dead, right? Sure. Also, if your lungs stop, you're kind of functionally dead. If your heart stops, you're functionally dead. So like not one of those things is responsible for it's just more complex. So it might be the same thing. Like we can't actually separate out, like we can't package that life force and like take out our brain and like feed it. Like they like on Futurama where they have like all the heads are preserved.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Oh see, I thought you were saying the opposite. Like because they're all interconnected. I'm saying if one stops, all stops.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

So you're yeah, literally. And so I think it's the same thing. Like you we can't pull our life breath, our spirit or our ruach out of the body and remain living, right? And I think the same would be for Nafesh. You can't close your throat and remain alive. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

So how do we then separate the fact that both the word for spirit, Ruach, and the word for soul, nafesh, both can have this life energy breath dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

I don't know. Yeah. But I think how you how you said it was kind of good, right? Nefesh is the living being and Ruach is the force that sustains it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

So I think that's the That's what you see a lot, I think, coming from God. Yeah. We breathe air. We have breath. Yeah. God gave us that breath. So I think that's where we see like life coming from God, not necessarily just a function of being alive.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Okay, so I think we have a good distinction then, as much as we potentially as much as we can. Not being non-theologians, right? Of Nefesh and Ruach. So we have the spirit and the soul kind of figured out, although they conceptually sometimes like definitely work together. Yeah, they kind of need one to have. Yeah, you have to have one to have the other, right? Wouldn't you? Or else you're the dead Nefesh. Yes. I guess you can. So you can, yeah. It's just the dead kind. Yeah. So I almost wonder if out-of-body experiences in terms of like astral projection realm. I've read before that that can have kind of a nefarious undertone to it. And I wonder now that we're researching this, if that's because we should not be separating the rua from the nefesh. Right. It's not supposed to be happening. Exactly. Like if we separate the rua from the nefesh, something is vulnerable, maybe. But that's happened to you before, right? Right. And so it's happened a handful of times over my life. And uh some people can put themselves in a trance, but in my case it was just happening, it just happened. I was in I was just starting to fall asleep, and my entire body felt like it was um when your foot is tingling, like when we say my foot is asleep. Yeah, like that, like pins and needles. Exactly. Kind of. Yeah, it's a very specific feeling in my whole tingles. Mm-hmm. My whole body did that. And I've read that that's a similar experience for others, so that I don't know what that is. But yeah, so I would lay down. I knew I was partially awake. I was fully awake, but my eyes weren't open. But like I it almost felt like my soul, my soul's eyes were open or something. Because I could sense around me, but it wasn't I could see things around me, but not fully. Almost like when you're looking through night goggles where things aren't quite crisp. Um, yeah, and then I just like I felt my body fall from or my soul fall, or spirit, who knows? So something fell out of my body and then kind of raised up, and I could feel something being pulled towards a window. I I'm up, I'm out of my body, but it kind of stops there. But as I was it was there fear? Like that sounds scary. Yeah, it's interesting because when I was younger, I I had a curiosity about it. I think it started in high school, and it was like, oh, this is kind of an interesting at first. It was scary because this feels unnatural. Yeah. And kind of something bad must be happening if this isn't normal. But then I it became curious. But then as I researched it, something always felt not quite right about it. Yeah. You can't really put your finger on it. But yeah, I almost I I've since read that I think a lot of Christians would say that it's like a spiritually unsafe practice. But it's not to say that if it happens, like you're evil, right? Because like I wasn't like intending to do that. I think it's more of like Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

No, it's just putting you more in like a vulnerable state, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Totally. And we yeah, and I think it's good to distinguish like there can be states that might feel like that for people, like dissociation or su or you know what I mean, that are separate, I think, from this experience. Not to say all trance like states necessarily are like bad or or spiritually unsafe, but I think specifically whatever I was experiencing did feel like that. And I did have one maybe three years ago, was my last one, and it was really intense because I had read that it could be I I guess it depends on where you're looking, but it can be kind of like you can meet with evil forces and things, depending on how you know what you're reading. I think it it's kind of debatable. Um, but it's basically like you're seeking a realm outside of God, mm-hmm, is how I've come to understand it, which is kind of where unclean creatures are dwelling, right? Because you're seeking a realm in which you should not be.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah. Yeah. The Bible explicitly warns against that, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

I know, I think so. I think the Bible kind of affirms this embodied unity of because we're an integrated being, like we said, if you do separate it, that's not that shouldn't be. That's not our design. And I think, like you said, it makes us vulnerable. And my latest, like three years ago, I it was wild. I was being pulled towards the window, but I didn't want to go because I could feel something really dark and sinister pulling me towards the window. It had never been like this distinct for me before, and I was pulling away from it. I didn't want to go, but it almost felt like it was trying really hard to grasp me in my spirit or soul, right? And so I started praying, and I started saying, like, Jesus, like help me through this, something along those lines. And then suddenly, as I started praying, there was this other force that came that was like a bright light force, and then it was pulling me the other direction. And as I just kept praying and praying, it became brighter and brighter, and then suddenly the other world shut off, and then I came back to my body. Wow. And so that was I I've always been a believer, but like it was in that moment that it was for me like cemented. Like now you have experienced it, you're not just believing something, you have exactly literally experienced it. Yeah, like my soul was in the middle of it, like there was a legitimate fight. But and I think because I was leaning more into my faith at that point, maybe that's why it felt so drastic.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Right. I don't know, but So do you think I mean we've touched on spirit, but we haven't even talked about the Holy Spirit yet. Um do you think that might have been if you're talking about like a spiritual realm, that it was your spirit, and then this some kind of dark force, and then the Holy Spirit basically rescuing you. Totally, yeah, like protecting you.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

That's a good point because the Holy Spirit lives inside of me and it was trying to pull me back to the body where it's embodied. Is that where the like the bright was pulling you back to you? It was like in front of me, and then the dark thing was almost on like above, like almost in another realm.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

And it's almost like there was a a vision of almost like a face, like the white light, and then the darkness almost had a sinister face. I don't know if that's just my brain trying to make sense of the colors. But yeah, I woke up and was like, holy crap. Yeah, what just happened? I just witnessed something really powerful, and I'm not even fully sure what it was.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah. Do you think that's the same bright light, maybe, that people see with like near-death experiences?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, do you think the Holy Spirit is actually that light guiding people? Maybe. Yeah, maybe it's the light is always in us.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Because the Holy Spirit is God, is Jesus, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah. It's just a like a specific manifestation or well, and there's that verse where it literally says, Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light on my path.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

This is kind of interesting. In Acts 2, 3 says, They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. So not light directly, but like a fire.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, I think fire is often used to represent God, and I think that's a lot of times I think fire and light can kind of be the same thing. Like light comes from fire, right? Absolutely. And like we have you have the sun, which we see as light, and it gives us light. Yeah. But it's fire to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Totally. And I mean, I think that's how God is literally communicating with us, right? The burning bush. We see however many examples of fire being his way of communicating. So the Holy Spirit being a light is almost like a type of fire that's communicating with us too. So I mean, I think there's something to perhaps the Holy Spirit is is that light. But I think it brings to question in like an out of body experience, what is it that's leaving your body? And I think that would be cultural, right? I think different cultures would say something else. Yeah. And so biblically, nothing is described as leaving your body during normal life. Only When it's something leaving at death.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

So either it is more of like your senses and it's like a perception thing that's happening. Or maybe you're on that edge of not being alive. I don't know. Yeah, there's like a precipice. Yeah. Because like you said, like you felt like you shouldn't keep going.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

And I wonder, like, I'm sure some people might even say, like, well, was it a vision that you saw? And maybe in a trance-like state. I mean, I guess Ezekiel, right, he collapses, shakes, and sees visions, but never leaves his body. But I mean, there's some similarity to the side.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

She was having experience. And you hear described a lot when people have near-death experiences. Yeah. I've heard it described a lot of time as being sort of floating above your body. Yeah. But then in that moment where you survive, you're like thrown back into you're like slammed back down, kind of. And it's like a down thing. Back into your body, sort of. Totally. Like pushing your life back into you. Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, so the Bible never says we should be doing anything of the sort. And I feel like, if anything, it seems more like on the divinition side of things. Right. But the weird part is like I wasn't asking for that. So what is that? Like a forced.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yeah, I think that that was just like influence. I don't think you were seeking something. It was just happening to you.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Yeah, and I think it's important to distinguish that it's not like a sin if it's happening, per se, right? Right. Like you you weren't actually doing something wrong. But at the same time, like what would have happened if I would have done that? Like I don't know. There's a lot of stories online of people meeting with people and like having whole adventures.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah. Like that. And then so I think it's not uh I think it's not a cut and dried No. If you do that, then you're dead. Um or you're evil or you're totally. Um but I do think the Bible does say not to like seek meeting with the dead or anything like that, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah. I mean, it's very clear in the Bible where it it sounds like it's either life or death. Like consciousness does not travel anywhere. And it's not to say everyone who has out-of-body experiences touching with evil either. I think maybe that was perchance my experience, just because we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Okay, so back to our anatomy. Yeah, yeah. Let's bring this back in. I think I think the fact that I'm wanting to define our anatomy is part of the modern paradox, right? It's going against what the Bible sees as a human, is a whole living thing. And yes, it has different parts. Yeah. But it's not as clean as there's where your soul lives, there's where your spirit lives. They do these two different things.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Right. I mean, this episode in general is a little against the point, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Like let's define all five terms, even though. But I but I still want to kind of define them.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

But it is the point, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah. We talk like that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

And it's not to say that because we're defining them as separate with separate words, we're saying that they're separate things. I think that's a good distinction too.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yes. I think also that we are almost looking at them as organs, or we want them to be organs as being a thing, it's like tucked away over here. Totally. And this is what it's doing. All five of them. We have five things that we keep bringing up, right? Soul, spirit, body, mind, and heart. Right. All five of those things in the biblical context, they're not organs, they're functions within us. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And so I think we want them to be so specifically one thing. You have one job.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah. Right. And what is that one job?

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah. And I think that's why the Holy Trinity and the Holy Spirit can be hard for us to conceptualize because where is the Holy Spirit in my body? What is it right? It's more complex than it has one job.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Right. So in looking at mind, body, and heart, those feel a little more fleshly, right? Yeah. Than spirit and soul. But are they? I don't know that the Bible meant them to be. We can talk more about heart and mind, but I think what I'm understanding heart as that's actually where it's like what you love and what you follow and how you make decisions based on those things.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

And I think it's fair to say like the phrase follow your heart, listen to your heart, is rooted in some of these biblical ideas.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Mind, I think, is meant to be more intellectual. Our mind is understanding and interpretation, but not necessarily the decision maker.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Right. I think that's the distinction is we think the mind should be the decision maker.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

But just because it makes thoughts doesn't mean that it should make decisions.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

And then my body is like just a bag of flesh and bones. And then you have breaks, right, when you examine it. First of all, you have the gut, and we're almost ignoring when we just talk about heart and mind, we're ignoring the fact that you have to take all these things in through your throat to live. Right. Same with emotions, right? My emotions go into my stomach all the time. I don't think they're just they don't just sit in the ball of blood in my heart.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Right. Most people would say that when they're anxious, at some point or another, they feel it in their stomach.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

You know, m uh my nerves also go to my legs. Totally. They'll sit in my ears for my quad muscles. I'll actually start to get like sore in the legs. Even recently I was having like an adrenaline episode, and after that adrenaline was gone, I was laying there and I was in bed. It was after, and my legs started like tremoring, like uncontrollably. And it was just like I felt calm in the moment again. Right. I was like, I'm here, I'm safe. I was warm in my bed, like everything was fine. But my legs, my quad muscles were just like trembling. And I was like, why are they doing that? Stop. And I was like even trying to just like soothe my legs. Yeah. But it was coming from somewhere else, and it was just that's where it sat. And all of my quad muscles were just uncontrollably like shaking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

And I think that's a good example of the holistic picture. It's much bigger. But here we're just gonna throw a little pen and thing. A pen? We're gonna throw, what's the word? A wrench. I'm about to throw a wrench into some of this. Okay, because there is no single mind word in the Hebrew Bible. Oh back. In Hebrew scripture, mind is distributed, not localized. So instead of one word, you get a network of inner functions. Again, holistic. And weirdly enough, this is just gonna confuse everything. The closest thing to mind in the Old Testament is lev, which means heart. No. Dun dun dun. Essentially, lev though means thinking, reasoning, decision making, moral judgment. And in Proverbs 23:7, it says, as a person thinks in their heart, so they are.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

So we're thinking in our hearts. Yep. And there's no such thing as a mind.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

And maybe the heart is kind of like, is it is it like the air traffic control? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Well, so is the heart and the mind actually the same thing? And it thinks and makes decisions and emotions and all of that. And the fact that we are connecting those two words into the brain and then the literal blood pumping organ of heart. Is that where we're kind of like going wrong? Like is heart and mind in this context actually the same thing? And then the organ is something different. So yeah, the Greeks coming in with some more distinctions.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Noose, like moose, is the most direct mind word, but again, this is with Greek. So Hebrew actually doesn't really have a term for mind.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Okay, so that is the word noose. Yep, but we see this in Romans 12 2. Yeah, so Romans 12.2. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. He is really talking about like focus that mental energy toward God and toward discernment.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Right. Right. It's more discerning. Right, not literal thoughts. So I think it's fair to say that biblically heart and mind are overlapping a lot more than we do now, which is never, right? Like if you go in for surgery, they're not gonna mix up the mind and the heart, right? Right. Hopefully. You don't really do mind surgery, do you? Right. Not yet. So both Hebrew and Greek do have ways to refer to the literal heart, but they don't really need a medical word for it because they didn't talk about anatomy, I don't think, in the way that we do now. But again, going back to Lev, it can sometimes mean literal heart, chest center. But most of the time in the Bible, it means inner life, which is the thinking, deciding, and intending. So it can actually mean both, depending on its use. Sounds like they didn't really distinguish the heart that thinks from the heart that beats.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Right. In ancient Israel, they were not compartmentalizing every single thing. They were seeing themselves as humans is one functioning system. Totally. And this is more Hebrew, I think. Again, Greek.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

The Greeks came along and Right. They started having philosophy. They had different things going on. And cardia, a lot well, and it's funny because a lot of the medical system today is rooted in Greek.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

We've taken those words. Yeah. You said psyche earlier. Yeah. Which was soul, but we've taken that word, the root of that word, psych, and we use it for all things relating to your brain. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Greek has cardiac, and a lot of the medical system is based in Greek words, right? So the Greek had an intentionality of separating these words for probably better understanding, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of the human nature. So you have a system. How long can we be satisfied with just being like, yeah, that's a really good working system? No, we want to like pull it apart and figure out what are the pieces in the system, what's each of them doing.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, and the more you learn about the human body, like the Greeks did, you need words for certain things. You you're literally seeing it, you know, versus it being more of a metaphorical situation, conceptual situation.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

But then what happened from there is things branched. So now you have just whole fields of study specifically related to one of those things. And I mean, not to anyone's fault, like it's probably impossible to remain holistic while also getting so deep into a specialization.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah. Initially it was a very holistic, interconnected, intertwined thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

So we have five things that we keep referencing body, mind, soul, heart, and spirit. Right. And we are able to identify different functions for each of those five things. Right. It's just not as clean as your heart is where you feel, and your mind is where you think, and your soul is where you live. It's not as clean as that.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah, it's just not that simplistic. But I think there are it is fair to say that they serve specific functions.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

You can kind of feed each of those where they're lacking, right? You know, sometimes you need healing in your body. Sometimes you need it in your mind or in your heart, like, or where you're feeling. But I think to get effective healing in any one area, we shouldn't necessarily be looking at just that one area, right? We should be looking at that whole functioning live being.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And I think that's where we go wrong, right? Like it's okay that they have different functions, and I don't think the Bible's trying to say that you shouldn't note that they have different functions. It's to say if we're healing one, shifts will be made in every other section that we need to notice. So if physically you go into the doctor, you have chronic pain. There's a lot of mental anguish that goes along with chronic pain. Yeah. If you're just helping fibromyalgia only through medication, maybe there's more to it than just that.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah. I think that's where you see holistic medicine becoming normal again in the Western world. It's becoming more normalized, I think. Even 15 years ago. I think people are starting to want that. Like, please don't just look at my Just don't look at my spleen feeling. And then the fact that a lot of our internal symptoms overlap and can be coming from any of these places. Absolutely. Okay, so I have a question. Yeah. Understanding that today we we are talking about anatomy, and there's a lot about the Holy Spirit that we'll get into later. Yeah. What does it mean if we have these five parts to ourselves? Yeah. What does that mean that the Holy Spirit lives in us? Right. Is the Holy Spirit different than my spirit? And does that mean I have two spirits? Or is the does the Holy Spirit live in my gut or is it like infused into through my blood? Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Like I was thinking that the other day laying down. I'm like, is the Holy Spirit taking on my form as if it's like taking on the form of my literal body? And it's just like a light that's around all of me. I think obviously it's just like we can't physically grasp that and we want to be able to attribute it in a shape, right? We want it to be like, oh, the Holy Spirit actually just nestles like a little ruby in our heart. Right. Oh, okay, I can understand that.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yeah. Oh, I was thinking about your what is it that people get taken out? Appendix. Oh, sure, sure. I was like, what if appendix is actually like our little house for the Holy Spirit? Oh, how's that? And then when we take it out, where is it gonna go? Maybe it has to go into your spleen, or you have two kidneys. Maybe it kicks out one of your kidneys and like goes to your other kidney. But I was wondering that, like, they say that the appendix is like a useless organ and they can't figure out what it is. And so I was like, so maybe it's actually just the little house, like waiting for the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

And then when that gets taken out, the Holy Spirit just moves on to another organ. Right. Like, yes, I'm moving on to the spine. That's not an organ, that's or your gallbladder. Bone. Or your gallbladder, right. Could it be in bone?

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Like that's what it's an essence, energy, or a light. Is it actually contained anywhere?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

It's the same concept as a smell where there's not a clear beginning or end to a smell. Oh, okay. It's just is in a room.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

That's kind of how I think it's inside of us.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

And it'll like fade at the edges. Okay, so well, is the Holy Spirit a spirit in the same way that my spirit is my spirit?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

So I think the Holy Spirit and I, you know, I think we know our spirit and the Holy Spirit are obviously separate, but again it goes back to they can be in relationship with one another. They can be in alignment. And I think Christian theology holds unity without identity, which is not helpful in understanding we want a physical explanation of the differences, like the Greeks did with creating a word for heart.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah. I want to know where I stop and the Holy Spirit begins. Right. But it's kind of sounding like that's not really a thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Yeah, so I think it's fair to say that our spirit maybe started with God creating us into existence, but our spirit isn't a piece of God, and that's why we need the Holy Spirit as a piece of God.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Our spirit is the life that God has breathed into us. Right. But it's us, and we are not God. So to have a connection or a presence with God, you need a channel. First they had well, first they had God on a mountain. Right. Right. And Moses could literally go. But then they built the tabernacle for God to dwell in. And then they built the temple. Right. I think they they just have a deep relationship with one another. So do you think it's kind of like water? Like if you mix water from over here and then water from over there, they're gonna kind of mix together, and you can't actually separate what was water A and what was water B. Even though they are, if you tested it, you could tell that there were two separate things in that water standard. And it's still it's two waters now in the same cup, but it's not like the first water sunk to the bottom or anything.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

And I think that it is clear that they're two separate things that are working together. So maybe it could be like an oil and water situation.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Or even like colored water, like if you had like red water and blue water, if you mix them together, now it's purple water because the red water is still in there and the blue water is still in there. Yeah. But it's like change. So it's change inside of your body. Yeah. Like you can't just take that purple water and then get it back to now put the red water back over there and the blue water back over here.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Right, exactly. Yeah, no, I think that's a great example. And so I think a good distinction is our human spirit is created, whereas the Holy Spirit has always been.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

It's kind of uncreated. Is that a word? And divine, whereas we're not. We were given that breath of life, and it will leave us too. Well, exactly. Yeah, it's we're a finite creature, whereas the Holy Spirit is not.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

So I think the reason why we wanted to talk about anatomy was kind of set up for future conversation that we have, right? So just to try to understand a little bit more how things are sort of situated when the Bible talks about spirit or the Holy Spirit living within us. Yeah. So when it comes to anatomy, and we're talking about mind, body, soul, heart, and spirit, first of all, I think a lot of people listening to this might know way more than we do about it. I feel like, oh my god, I think that's so wrong. If yeah, if anybody listening has answers for us, please let us have them. But I think in the meantime, I think we're sort of understanding that ourselves are actually one system and sort of one house, and it's not necessarily, well, does the Holy Spirit live in my heart or does it live in my gut? And we're not really able to say, no, it's in your appendix.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Which is interesting because a lot of people do say, which we'll get into in our future episodes on the Holy Spirit, follow your gut. But I don't necessarily think he's residing in the gut, but maybe he's using that as a messenger or a tool.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

And you know, it's interesting, like in this anatomy set that we've kind of named, we don't really name the gut, follow your gut. Those are kind of understood as two different things. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

We just don't say it in the phrase of mind, body, soul. Like you said, you don't say gut, body, soul.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

That seems gross for some reason. Right. But it's clearly important and it it's clearly a driver. Like 100%. Your gut affects your brain.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, it's our feeling center, even though we attribute our mind to our feeling center. And also our heart.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

And our heart, but really I think it's in our gut. Okay, so we didn't even name gut as one of like like these anatomy areas we're trying to define.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah, I think next week we'll get more into how the gut interplays with these five basic anatomies that we've discussed.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

So we're clearly identifying the reality that we can't just cleanly compartmentalize these things. Think we could say the spirit is what gives us life. Our soul lives and dies. Our soul is alive or dead, our heart directs us or leads us. Uh-huh. Our mind interprets and perceives and kind of shapes the world around us. And then our body acts like more literally.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah, and I think it's the like the vessel that is used, but it's the last thing that we should really be following when it comes to the order of operations and spiritual, I think. Spiritually, I think it's like Holy Spirit, soul, body, right? Because the body is listening to the flesh, essentially. So I think body is just this vessel. Not to say we shouldn't listen to our bodies, right? I think it's more nuanced than that, but that also could be another episode. Right. We're full of podcast episodes. So that's why we're doing this, right? I know. So tune in next week as we continue our series on the Holy Spirit, where we dive more into specific body parts and how the Holy Spirit intertwines within. Thanks for listening.